Douglas Fry is a remarkable photographer and he brings fresh insights to running a photography business! He founded Piranha Photography in 1993 and shares how he’s built up to hundreds of reoccurring clients. Learn how Douglas establishes and develops his client relationships to keep them coming back. The full audio and transcript are below!
Full Interview Audio:
Some of Douglas’ work:
Links to websites and resources mentioned:
Douglas’ website – https://www.piranhaphotography.com/
Douglas’ email – Douglas@piranhaphotography.com
Douglas’ Instagram handle – @piranhaphotography
Photo Mechanic – https://home.camerabits.com/
Full Transcript:
Trevor: We are super excited that we get to speak with Douglas Fry today. Douglas’ photographic career began in advertising at the leading fashion house Burberry before he moved to the Independent Newspaper Group. He left the Independent to become a freelance news and features photographer with his work regularly appearing in the Times, Independent, Observer, Spectator and many others. Douglas founded Piranha Photography in 1993 and currently shoots a lot of annual reports, advertising and weddings throughout UK and Europe. He is married with two children and living in Oxford, has all his own teeth, is younger than he looks and is very kind to animals. Douglas, welcome! It’s great to have the chance to speak with you today!
Douglas: It’s great. I mean, I do have all my own teeth. That’s very important.
Trevor: Fantastic. I read that and I was like, that’s that’s good stuff. I don’t even have all of my teeth, so that’s awesome.
Douglas: That’s right. Yeah.
Trevor: No, yeah. I actually was very intrigued by the name Piranha. Where did this idea kind of originate from? I got to ask.
Douglas: That’s a very good question. That is on my, many years ago when I was a student, I had a real stuffed piranha on the mantlepiece. So I thought it’d be quite a cool thing cause when the digital came along, I had Piranha Byte and it was B-Y-T-E. See what I’ve done there? Yeah, the only snag is, no one can spell it. That’s the trouble. It’s piranha like the fish, which is P I R A N H A. Now you get a whole bunch of different permutations on that spelling. So that’s the only snag. But it is unusual. Most people do remember it from that point of view.
Trevor: Oh, it’s true. Because immediately as soon as I saw it, that’s right, the fish jumped into mind and I was like, oh, I don’t hear that, usually it’s just like someone’s last name photography, you know?
Douglas: Yeah.
Trevor: So that’s quite interesting.
Douglas: That’s exactly right. So it’s photography byte, to give it a bit of edge, that sort kind of funny play on words there with the words as you talk.
Trevor: No, I love that. Thanks for that background information. That’s great. And then also just from what I was able to read and research, you have quite the strong opinion from what I gather about the camera you use. And I understand you’ve been using a Leica camera for about 30 years, is that right? And just kind of curious. Yeah, yeah. Just curious what makes the camera so special to you? 30 years is a long time.
Douglas: In fairness, I went digital in the year 2000 and there wasn’t a Leica offering, so I had to go to, nothing wrong with it, but I had to go to Canon for a while. But then Sony came along a little while later and I knew that with a small adapter you could use Leica lenses on a Sony. So I did that. Went manual focused. I’ve been manual focused really for the last 15 years or so. And then I suddenly realizing on the Sony cameras, whenever I put the Leica on in my view, these things are often subjective, the images are far crisper, the colors are great, the accents are great. And I thought, well why am I, but the edges of the frame has like a smear, a lens aberration. At the time there was a Leica M240 so I can go back to my Leicas again, tried an M240 and all those aberrations disappeared and all these lenses were sharp and had great, just great colors and everything. So that was it. And I sold everything. I went back to my rangefinders for all my work and that’s still true to this day. I still have an SL2-S, but about, I’ve got about five rangefinders I think somewhere knocking around. So, yeah, they’re great, very simple cameras focusing fast. You can focus on anything. People say how do you manage, I wear glasses, how do you manage to focus on someone’s eye for example, actually is it is just practice. And even with a 90mm, I was getting as many out of focus say as someone with an auto focus camera on a busy day. One or two maybe, and that was it. And it’s so small you see, tiny, you can put it in your jean-pocket. Try doing that with a Canon 50mm 1.2.
Trevor: Need a really big pocket.
Douglas: You’d have to have cargo pants. You’d look a bit strange as well. So just a small little lens in your pocket. So then see if I’m shooting, I don’t really shoot so many weddings anymore, but you could go with a suit on, have two cameras and a lens in your pocket and you’re good for the day. It’s great.
Trevor: So it’s quite practical to travel.
Douglas: Yeah, yeah, traveling. Yeah, I travel a lot around Europe and just having a smaller case and having it just rammed in, they’re pretty tough lenses and cameras so you can get bounced around. Yeah, so whenever I really look back on it, I’ve had my lenses for about 25 years, I guess.
Trevor: That’s phenomenal.
Douglas: They’re great.
Trevor: Incredible. No, you found your thing and you went for it and it’s working well for you, that’s great. So now we kind of have a little bit of background on you and the cameras that you’re using and then shifting gears just slightly to kind of now focus on more running together, running a business, putting it together, because it’s a lot of work. Stress, stress levels rise and fall all the time. But from your perspective, what are some of the top things, in your opinion, other photographers should know when they’re trying to run their business and make it successful? Why have you become so successful?
Douglas: Yes. The important thing is to know how to manage your business. And that’s really the key thing. I mean, many photographers in London, I can only refer to London really, cause I’d say every year there’s probably about 15,000 new photographers I’d guess. And a year later, 99% of them decide to, probably quite sensibly, decided to do something else. Cause you just run out of friends to ask favors from, friends who are getting married say, other little local businesses you can find. And that all dries up and then you’ve got to find some way of getting more work and then that’s got to be sustainable on an ongoing basis. So you’ve got to establish relationships. And then obviously you want to get clients and then keep them, like forever basically. So our client list, we have 350, 400 clients in total. And some of them maybe only commission me for a day a year, but then it all adds up, you see. So maybe another one’s only a day year. Some clients book, they book two days a month, every month in advance, a year in advance. So then you’re suddenly finding, well now I’ve got, I probably shoot every single day and there’s a few days I don’t shoot. But I mean it’s rare. In the last year we had about 340 shoots I guess. That was just me and a couple colleagues. Yeah, so there’s quite a few shoots. So you have to keep track of it. And then the next thing is efficiency. You have to be efficient on your shoot. So everything is, that’s why I particularly like Leica’s, is everything is manual, manual shutter speed, manual aperture, manual color balance, there’s flashes set manually, never use ttl cause it’ll reassess the images all the time as it goes along. So the post-production can be a little bit more, every single one we might have to adjust it individually. So if it’s like a shoot in a studio environment, everything’s set manually, color balance, so when you get them into Lightroom or Capture One, there’s very little tweaking to do. You sort of maybe glance through and check if there’s problems. But ninety-nine percent of the time you’ve done it an hour and a half exporting the files, backing them up and then it’s off to the client. And that’s what we’ve done every single day, so I tend to do a shoot, maybe download as go I along or if I can’t, download at the end of the shoot process that evening and do adjustments I feel I need and then export them to Dropbox. All the DNGs, they’re picked up by my wife here in the office and she runs them through her Macs here, just tweak the colors as per the brief. Maybe it’s a specific magazine or maybe it’s a specific website or annual report and you have a certain treatment and then they go off to the client. So then I’m fresh again for the next day. I can start with a clear camera and keep shooting again.
Trevor: Ya, right on.
Douglas: So that efficient workflow is very important,
Trevor: The efficient workflow. And you mentioned that you’ve built up this really big client base that you’re now, even if it’s just once a year, I mean because of big your client base is, that’s okay because of how many shoots you’re still able to do. So what have you done to build up that client base? I mean what were the ways that you marketed yourself? Was it a lot of word of mouth? Was it online advertising or what kind of ways did you go about it?
Douglas: That’s a good question. It evolved over the years because obviously some clients I’ve had for 15 years, so the way I got them in those days may not be relevant today cause you wouldn’t write them a letter anymore. I think, it’d be more of a analog kind of process. But nowadays, actually funnily enough, over lockdown was a good example. I obviously didn’t get, there weren’t any shoots going on but so we decided to, our local Oxford council were allocating grants for small businesses for about 3,000 or 4,000 pounds that we couldn’t have, but we could allocate it to someone who could help us. Bit of a bizarre thing. But anyway, we went with it and we said to a PR guy, can we have some PR we’ve never used, done it before. So he said, yes you can, but you need to write articles, you need to write articles about your work and the things you like shooting and things you don’t like shooting and anything you can think of. But he said, I want 40 articles, 2000 words each. So I had a couple of years to do this. So I just, I’m not a journalist so I had to put my head down and just think about the topic, maybe it’s corporate photography and write 2000 words about it and then send them off to this guy. He would then reframe it in the voice of the magazine. So American Photo would be a different kind of style of writing to maybe amateur photographer here in the UK, it’d be a different style of writing. So he would tweak it to match the style of American Photo and accompany it with some photographs and send it off. And of course we had, couldn’t believe it when our first one was published. And I thought, well that’s amazing. We’ve got three or four pages in a magazine. But then by the end of the lockdown, all 40 were published globally around the world. So that made an enormous difference to SEO for example, which is obviously a key thing these days.
Trevor: Definitely.
Douglas: As much as we don’t like it, it’s there. And so that’s what we did. And then other than that, we do a lot of marketing. We always stay in touch with clients, always. Even a regular client. It’s very easy for someone sitting at a desk in an office who suddenly gets an approach by a friend’s friend of a friend – he’s a photographer too or she’s a photographer. So you got to just keep in touch with them, make sure you’re always front of mind. Could be something simple, like a quick phone call. Could be going out for a coffee with him, go and meet them or actually just send some, we have some postcards made, each postcard have about 10 different images on postcards, so I send them a different postcard every time so they get a new one. And when they go around to their offices, you can see them all stuck to call boards, stuff like that.
Trevor: That’s awesome. So those three things of either giving them a phone call, see if they want to go out for coffee, even sending them a postcard, cause in my mind I was like, yeah, I wonder how he’s keeping in touch with them. Cause the first thing that jumped in my mind was like, is he maybe sending emails or, so that’s really cool that there was actually three different things.
Douglas: That’s right. Sometimes it is an email. It depends on the client really because sometimes the client might be abroad and maybe they’re based in Germany or something. So I mean, maybe, of course tricky timing, or something like that. But although maybe they just prefer an email and, maybe through LinkedIn, maybe send a little message, make sure we’ve got something to say. Yeah, I mean to make sure we don’t just say hi cause, yeah, you haven’t said anything. So make sure you got something to report or announce or a little tip about something just to make it relevant. And then they appreciate it, what you just did, they might read it briefly.
Trevor: And then what’s kind of your process for handling new clients? You’re given a lead or something and what’s kind of your process for taking care of them, building rapport with a new client?
Douglas: Yeah, that’s a good one. I’d normally, where possible, would go and see them because you need to see eyeballs, to eyeball, but what it is they want out of a photographer and you can really establish what they really want from a brief, just trying to articulate what it is they want. Cause sometimes when they put it in writing, it doesn’t come across well. It’s like social media. Sometimes people say things in social media that comes across badly. But actually actual fact they’re saying it laughing their head off but you didn’t know that when you read the email. So it is always good to go and see them and then you can meet them, establish some sort of relationship I hope. Because very, very few people, very few times go and see their clients. And I have some friends of mine, the last thing they want to do is go out and have a coffee with some, more or less, stranger. But I don’t mind it. That’s what I like doing. But if you go meet them, if it’s a pitch situation and you go in and make a pitch in person, I mean chances are you going to get it cause no one else has turned up or wants to come in. So it just works out. Personal treatment. Even these days of emails and social media and LinkedIn, a personal approach really is the best. We can arrange, over the summer months, you can arrange a small drinks party that doesn’t cost much, put some money behind a bar and invite a bunch of your favorite clients and they all like talking to each other anyway cause they’ve all got the same role. They might be in investor relations or marketing so they’ll all chat anyway. But that’s another thing and it doesn’t cost much.
Trevor: Very interesting. That’s great.
Douglas: It is got to be active. If you’re not on a shoot on a day, think of something to do marketing wise.
Trevor: I love that because it’s so easy to send a message via social media or an email. But how much more of an impact is it going to have if you’re there sitting with them enjoying an experience together of having a drink, coffee, whatever it may be, versus, oh I received this message, do I really want to get back to this person? Eh, we’ll see, you know?
Douglas: That’s right, yeah. And hopefully you come across, you’ve done a bit of research about them and you know about them. You could ask them about their annual report or something you read in the press. So do a little bit of homework so you’re not just pitching photography. Cause basically you want to talk them to talk to you and you answer questions. It’s not me just having a pulpit and just talking at them.
Trevor: Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s great. I think that’s a lot of valuable information for anybody wanting to again, build a client base so that you’ll kind of have that for years to come. All the follow ups that you mentioned. That’s great. And now let’s say, so you’ve built up somewhat of a client base, things are kind of rolling for you, how do you ensure that you’re consistently delivering high a quality image and exceeding client expectations?
Douglas: Yeah, the key thing is understanding the brief from the client. Cause sometimes it is confusing or they say something they’ve read somewhere and it’s not what they mean at all. So, firstly, establish that straight away. And maybe even, we then use our blog as almost like a tailored portfolio. So when you’re speaking out something about maybe it’s architectural photography in Europe, then we got stuff to send them. Is this what you mean when you said architectural interiors? Yes it is. That’s exactly it. But not, the other stuff not so much, even though for me it would be pretty relevant but as they’ve just nailed it and said no, not really, not that at all. So that’s, that’s the key thing. I think just being the kit has to be good. I mean, in the early days we were very susceptible to buying cheap, buying twice. So you have to have good file servers. We have 3, 48 terabyte file servers to keep all the shoots we’ve ever taken for all on these three. One of, the third one is in a different location in case this place blows up. So one’s faster, active, one’s a backup and the third one’s somewhere else. So that’s important because you can retrieve any image immediately. And always respond to emails fast. So if someone sends an email, it’s like a text message for us.
Trevor: Oh okay.
Douglas: If you’re in the office you reply straight away, there’s no next day kind of thing. It’s like within the next 10 minutes we want to reply. I’ve just taking delivery of a new M2 Max so I turnaround images on site as fast as possible. Maybe it’s for the newspapers or a magazine and often they can’t believe you just turned it around. And it’s all color calibrated. We calibrate all our screens every four weeks here, all the laptops, all the big Macs. So we want the process to be the same for every single shoot we do. So I’m not forgetting to do one little thing that’s going to trip me up. I just do the same for everybody. It’s the bigger shoot to the smaller shoot, we all get the same treatment. So all color calibrated with the right profiles, everything and it’s all farmed off to the servers and then it emails me when it’s all backed up and then I can wipe the cameras. So yeah, over the years we’ve honed our little workflow and it works for us. I mean some people would have a different tweak to the workflow I’m sure. But for us it’s quite solid.
Trevor: No, that’s great. Cause I mean I love what you said at the beginning there, it really kind of boils down to having good communication with clients to understand exactly what their vision is. So the fact that you’re kind of sending examples, so hey, is this what you’re saying? Yes or no? Great, let’s move forward or let’s back up a little bit, let’s figure out exactly kind of what you are envisioning cause that’s really giving them a better experience if you already kind of know specifically what they’re after. And then the fact that you guys really take it to heart to get back to clients immediately, as quick as possible. Like you said, to treat emails like a text message, like that’s brilliant because if people are getting those fast responses, they’re starting to feel, oh hey I’m important to them because of how quickly they’re getting back to me. It’s just an extra level of service, you know?
Douglas: It is, yeah. We try and think of ourself something like, Apple’s good for us here, it’s been good customer service. You think, well what do they do? And they’re always emailing me and even Leica has very good customer service, they message me. You have a very good relationship with the brand. So if it like, well life is short, so if you want a nice relationship with everybody and what would I like? Well I’d like a fast response. I want the images to be the best quality they can be. And usually resized correctly, someone wants their LinkedIn, we just send those free of charge, LinkedIn size. Even over and above what they want for the magazine or the website. So it’s little courtesy things we do as well. And we’ve all organized these little presets in Lightroom so we can just, we’re on LinkedIn? Sure, hit that preset and it’s stuff like that. So it’s very fast and we got about 30 presets all worked out. So whatever someone wants hit the preset and tweak it a bit if necessarily. But then it goes pumped out straight to the server and then we just send them off to them by either WeTransfer or Dropbox, something like that, get them back out. Cause once you’ve finished the job and cleared it, you can be on to the next one, you know, in a minute I’ll have a beer. So it’s all done. The shoots tomorrow, shooting all day, I’ll finish them by 7:00 PM probably. And then all good and done. The computers then take over the backups and they just give you a little message, say it’s all complete.
Trevor: Very interesting. I mean it sounds like with your process there’s a lot of different tools, integrations that you have. I mean it’s your workflow. That’s actually something I I’d love to ask you, what are some of the best resources that you would recommend to a group of photographers that would help them in their business?
Douglas: Yeah, I think software-wise, Photo Mechanic for me is the main front line of photographic tools in terms of just culling, metadata and just speed really. It’s very, very quick at rationing through a lot of images. And then obviously after that it’s Lightroom and then you need to chuck some processing resources at it because there’s nothing worse than just waiting for 10 minutes for Lightroom to ingest and build previews when you could wait for three minutes if you bought a faster laptop. And it is, you can do all that kind of thing on site. Otherwise, I think the main thing is everybody shoots in their own way and has different cameras and different methods, but just think about how you can make it more efficient. What am I missing here in terms of why is something taking so long? Is there something I could do to improve that process. And it may be a new laptop but maybe it’s, well actually no I could just use a fast card reader, or I’ve got fastest card readers I could buy and then I could plug them all in at once and it just dumps the data onto the laptop and that saves about a minute and a half for three or four SD cards just to be dumped onto that. So that’s a useful little thing. So it’s just basically just examine your own workflow and try and get it fast and make it as efficient as possible. And the clients obviously, the clients love it because you’re getting their work back and that’s exactly what they want. Usually they’re pretty anxious about it if it’s a new photographer, they’re bit anxious about, oh God, are these going to work out, will I look an idiot to my chairman? And you get them back straight away and hopefully they’re happy. And then they just book it again. A safe pair of hands as it were.
Trevor: I think that’s great advice. Where are the inefficiencies? What could be more efficient? Is there any place in my workflow where I could be saving time? Is there someone else that could do what I’m doing but better or faster? So that would give me more time to do other parts?
Douglas: Maybe outsource things. See my work changed, it’s funny, my work changed enormously when we got married because my wife used to run a design agency so she’s very good on organization. So I’d be hugely inefficient on the whole load of stuff. But when two of you together somewhere else, is it synergy? When its two things are more than double, it goes triple or quadruple because suddenly, all my time’s freed up if I’ve just used the initial cull process in Lightroom and send them off to Sam in the office, I can go and do something else. So I’m suddenly free. Whereas previously I’d be still working out how to email something or sending the client the wrong files. So as soon as she took over that role, everything became much more smoother. And then you got to charge correctly. You got to work out, make sure you charge correctly. You don’t under sell, a lot of photographers say I need a hundred pounds no less, and the client says, oh my God, we can get someone to do it to for 50. And then they cave immediately, just cave in. Oh yeah, okay fine, I’ll do it. Cause they’re worried about losing, but don’t say, well if you want it for less then you’ve got to give me something back. That’s negotiation. So if you want, that’s a budget one well maybe you don’t get the high res jpgs. We don’t shoot as many or I don’t stay there as long. And suddenly you realize that it’s only fair, he’s asking for something quid pro quo. We’ll just leave it as it is, 100 pounds is fine. It’s extremely rare we have to give a discount for anything. And then it’s rare that someone, if they don’t book, then chances are you probably wouldn’t want to work and when they come back to you six weeks later and say, can we re-shoot it because the guy didn’t do a great job. And that’s happened before, we were turned down on and then they needed to reshoot it. Yeah, that happens a lot too. So being, yeah, it helps to have pride in your own work really.
Trevor: Very interesting, that negotiation part. Boy, I mean you probably learn a lot on the job how to start handling it.
Douglas: That’s exactly it. You have to, yeah. Yeah, get a job however briefly in sales maybe or something like that to learn how to negotiate a deal and in a nice way, it’s not, it’s all pleasant. You got to, don’t give away the farm to get the job because then you’ll feel bad on the shoot, say, well I’m doing this really cheaply, I don’t, I’m not enjoying it anymore. But if you know you’re getting paid the proper amount, then you launch into a little more enthusiasm and you just feel more pride in what you do. Then you think, well I can buy more cameras, I can buy more lenses or I can do stuff now with more money.
Trevor: Yeah.
Douglas: It is just, you got to hold your own really.
Trevor: Totally. I love that. Just a couple questions to kind of wrap things up. I think we’ve, yeah, I really understand love everything that we’re talking about, the negotiation part especially. I feel like a lot of time could be focused just on that part, that aspect.
Douglas: Just on that really, yeah. People don’t negotiate. They cave in normally, yeah.
Trevor: Totally. For you, Douglas, what makes a photograph truly powerful and memorable?
Douglas: That’s a good question. And sometimes funny enough, you get a shoot where maybe interesting, maybe you’re shooting a, photographing an iron foundry in Germany. So almost wherever you point the camera is going to be an interesting shot. But sometimes you get, I enjoy it when the chief executive or the politician or whoever it might be, is really adamant they’re not going to like their picture and they’re not going to like the way they’re going to be portrayed in the image or the annual report. And then you could light it correctly and then show them quickly on the laptop and they’d turn around and say, well this is a really great portrait. I wasn’t expecting this at all, sort of thing. So sometimes it gives you a bit of a curve ball, but sometimes it’s the ones you really, who are most adamant that it’s all going to be horrendous and awful and you can turn them around. Even just some of those most simplest shot, sometimes they’re the ones that give you the most satisfaction. If you’re photographing, I was photographing Xi Jinping, the Chinese leader and I had 10 seconds or something, but I was pleased with the shot because it was under quite a lot of pressure. Five seconds is not long, 10 seconds is not long. Then I was dragged backwards by his protection squad. At least I knew I had the image in, on the little camera, I shot it a little Leica because they wouldn’t want anyone else with a big camera anywhere near him. So it’s a simple image, but I was very pleased with it. Cause A, it was in focus and B, it showed a good expression on him. So that wasn’t an easy shot. But you’d look at it photographically and say, it looks pretty straightforward to me, but you have to imagine the time pressure and the sort of sheer pressure of photographing something like that in those five seconds. Sometimes the little simpler shots can be deceiving.
Trevor: Yeah.
Douglas: And actually be the most satisfying.
Trevor: That’s incredible. So you said you had about 10 seconds to get it and so it was all like instant, just boom.
Douglas: I said it was 10 seconds, but it was, yeah, it wasn’t 10 seconds it was – and I had a policeman next to you with a machine gun and he was smiling. Yeah, I said as long as he was, I thought as long as he keeps smiling, I’m relaxed. If he suddenly got all serious and started cocking the weapon then that’d be a different scenario. But he laughed. He said, just guys, just leave him alone, to the protection squad. He’s allowed to photograph and just leave him alone. And so they did, but the fact they did grab me made much more of a dinner party story afterwards.
Trevor: Oh yeah. That’s great. Yeah, that would, no pressure, right? Just a guy with a machine gun next to you, so.
Douglas: Yeah, he’s laughing, so he’s fine.
Trevor: That is, wow. That’s awesome. Such an incredible experience I’m sure for you. So, boy. But, Douglas, if people are wanting to connect with you, what’s going to be the best way for them to do so?
Douglas: Well, any social media really, or through the website is a contact form or through the email address, which is Douglas@piranhaphotography.com is the email address.
Trevor: Perfect. Boy, we appreciate your time today. I think going back through, I’m excited to put together all this for our listeners because of the valuable information. That’s one of the reasons why I love doing these is I’m learning the entire time myself. So I feel grateful that I’ve had this opportunity to speak with you and I’m looking forward to sharing this with everybody as well.
Douglas: Yeah, I’ve been reading the blog of some of your other photographer interviews. I mean, you can get a different takeaways in every single one of them.
Trevor: Totally.
Douglas: So I was just going through them. Yeah, yeah really. I was just writing some little notes about the different ideas or different lives that people lead in different parts of the world. You can always learn something from the most junior photographers, to the most experienced. Sometimes a junior guy will say something and you say, well, say that again. Wow. Yeah, I hadn’t thought of that. I had not thought of that. So yeah, that’s why you should always listen to juniors as well as, cause some people are a bit dismissive of new guys when you shouldn’t be, they’re giving a fresh angle.
Trevor: I think that’s an incredible mindset to have, to just be open to, hey, what can I always be learning from this person or from this person. Because everyone again, yeah, has that different viewpoint. So that’s awesome that you’re in that mindset.
Douglas: No, you have to, otherwise you have to keep changing to stay the same. If you just stick to what you know and what you do, you’re actually, you don’t realize it, but you’re actually falling back. So if you learn, try and learn something new today, I’m going to learn something new today, you tell yourself, and then try and learn something new. And then I see where sometimes it’s relevant, sometimes it’s not, but that’s okay. Even the stuff that isn’t is good to know. So that, and you can take forward the stuff that’s relevant to you. So you’re already sort of honing your own workflow. Things change every day. Workflows change every day. Well, up to a point, you know lightroom’s being updated all the time with new stuff. Capture One’s updated all the time with new stuff. Computers change, cameras change. So you got to keep on top of it, really. Just have an interest. And I’m always really enthusiastic about photography. When I’m not shooting, I’m doing courses, any courses on say any random topic, landscape, street photography, whatever it might be. Because then you meet people, from a different sphere and you pick things off them and you meet them, have a beer, it’s always nice.
Trevor: Oh, absolutely. I love that. Learn something new every day. I think that’s the perfect message to move forward with, you know?